Interoperability issue

[desiree101]

Since installing and trying out PL, which I really like, I have to re-add some of my programs that I added to startup, especially Microsoft Security Essemtials Antivirus because they keep disappearing. I even uninstalled PL just to see if it was what was causing them not to start at startup - and it was, because when I rebooted my PC without PL, all my startup programs came back. When I installed PL back, they went away again lol.
I really want to keep using PL, but not if they keep stopping my startup programs. I could list all the programs but there are quite a few. I could try and trim back some, but I do want the antivirus program to at least be one of them that starts without me having to manually start it.

[edkiefer]

Hi , How are you determining MSE is not running ?
PL GUI may not list some AV type processes if they are known to not like being watched, polled .
Its best to use MS task manager to see every processes.

PL should have no issue with other app running ,we never got report of that .
At run command type "msconfig" it will list all serivces and startups , so that would be way to see along with event viewer for any errors showing.

Edit: What OS are you running?

One last thing that may get some into trouble , PL has an option "termination always" which is right above the normal terminate option .
If you even used this by mistake it will add that process to never allow it to run . So simple way to check if this has happened is go to options "configure disallowed processes" and remove any that to added that you "do" want to run on your system.

[Jeremy Collake]

I suspect an interoperability issue. What other software do you have installed? Any optimization type software? Any startup management software?

The Task Scheduler entries, and service configuration, are of course what we are speaking of. I would definitely like to get to the bottom of this report. It's hard to imagine how Process Lasso could delete startup entries itself - as that is something you have to do quite explicitly, as you can imagine, but if it's clearly occurring, then *something* is happening.

EDIT: Also do answer Ed's question about the config of Lasso and how you are determining these things aren't starting. Are you relying on the Task Manager's (not Task Scheduler) report of programs set to start at user login?

Please also report your OS. We will figure this out, whether it's some weird interoperability issue, some configuration issue, or a perception issue, but need more information.

[desiree101]

@ edkiefer, hi Well, if MSE is running its not in the system tray, I like to see the icon and its not there.
Edit: since checking Task Manager, I can see its not running at all.
I checked msconfig, my startups are not listed.
Nope, I didn't touch anything to do with 'termination always'  - all this happened as soon as I installed, before I even changed anything from default.

@ jeremy, hello Yes, I do use a startup software actually (avir Pro), useful for when I install programs or use Windows Updates sometimes other things are added to startup or my homepage gets changed etc, things that I don't want.  I think yes, there could be some conflict because as soon as I uninstalled PL, all my startup programs that stopped with PL, were listed in the popup box from avir saying '8 new programs have been added at startup' - all the programs I allowed to start in the first place! lol
Yes I used Task Manager.
My OS is Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit, Service Pack 1.

[edkiefer]

@ edkiefer, hi Well, if MSE is running its not in the system tray, I like to see the icon and its not there.
Edit: since checking Task Manager, I can see its not running at all.
I checked msconfig, my startups are not listed.
Nope, I didn't touch anything to do with 'termination always'  - all this happened as soon as I installed, before I even changed anything from default.

@ jeremy, hello Yes, I do use a startup software actually (avir Pro), useful for when I install programs or use Windows Updates sometimes other things are added to startup or my homepage gets changed etc, things that I don't want.  I think yes, there could be some conflict because as soon as I uninstalled PL, all my startup programs that stopped with PL, were listed in the popup box from avir saying '8 new programs have been added at startup' - all the programs I allowed to start in the first place! lol
Yes I used Task Manager.
My OS is Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit, Service Pack 1.

Well then, i would try adding avir Pro to "exclude from Probalnce" in options and see if that fixes it .

[desiree101]

That sounds like it should work, but it happens as soon as I install PL so the 'damage' is already done before I can open the program to exclude avir from ProBlance lol.
I have just uninstalled PL because I just couldn't stand having to manually start the programs all the time, but I will reinstall it again and try what you suggest. I'll let you know how it goes

[desiree101]

Okay, I tried it. Just as I thought, it didn't work. As soon as I installed PL, a pop-up box from avir says 'Nvidia CP will no longer start at startup'. This happens 9 more times with different programs. I start PL to exclude avir from ProBalance. I restart Windows and there are no startup programs, including avir itself, my antivirus, my antispyware etc, just like before. The only program that starts up is Process Lasso! lol.
As long as PL is installed, even if its not running, my startup programs don't run unless I manually start them. So, as Jeremy said, something from PL is blocking avir, therefore, all my startups won't start.

[edkiefer]

Okay, I tried it. Just as I thought, it didn't work. As soon as I installed PL, a pop-up box from avir says 'Nvidia CP will no longer start at startup'. This happens 9 more times with different programs. I start PL to exclude avir from ProBalance. I restart Windows and there are no startup programs, including avir itself, my antivirus, my antispyware etc, just like before. The only program that starts up is Process Lasso! lol.
As long as PL is installed, even if its not running, my startup programs don't run unless I manually start them. So, as Jeremy said, something from PL is blocking avir, therefore, all my startups won't start.

That is real odd , how about if you run PL with out it starting at startup ,When you install PL the last 2 pages of startup set it so GUI runs it "do not start at login" for console and for core engine "have it launched by gui when it is run .
You can also set this within PL from options >general settings>configure how PL is started.
So now it doesn't start at startup and your avir startup should work.

If that doesn't work then its some kind of conflict with installer, somehow IMO.
You could run Hijackthis might give us more info to (before/after , just make sure your Anriv stuff is setup , does avir startup manager run avir A/V to ?

[desiree101]

I reconfigured PL's Startup as you suggested, and its still the same, no avir, no startup programs.

I agree, it seems it is something to do with the installer because all this happened as soon as I installed PL and BEFORE launching it.
No, avir doesn't have an antivirus.

[Jeremy Collake]

Please allow some time for us to test with avir TM and see if we can reproduce the issue. I suspect it (avir TM) is what is actually to blame, as it is managing the startup applications, but something Process Lasso is doing is causing it to malfunction (an interoperability issue).

[desiree101]

Please allow some time for us to test with avir TM and see if we can reproduce the issue. I suspect it (avir TM) is what is actually to blame, as it is managing the startup applications, but something Process Lasso is doing is causing it to malfunction (an interoperability issue). Maybe any application that adds itself to the Task Scheduler causes some bug in avir to manifest.

Okay, that's fine. Thank you for your help, I really appreciate it 
I hope these two programs can play nicely together

[BenYeeHua]

a pop-up box from avir says 'Nvidia CP will no longer start at startup'

Yup, this is the keyword, I think somehow they think the user has disabled any other apps.

Anyways, news?

[edkiefer]

Well, I tried to reproduce it in VM, installed avir TM , then installed PL .
When you have avir installed, every process that runs you get a pop up (do you want it to run) . This is little overboard IMO but I do get it on a security point of view.
Anyway, I didn't have any conflict with both installed, I added one drive to a delayed start as VM was clean win10 , but both worked together .

[desiree101]

Well, I tried to reproduce it in VM, installed avir TM , then installed PL .
When you have avir installed, every process that runs you get a pop up (do you want it to run) . This is little overboard IMO but I do get it on a security point of view.
Anyway, I didn't have any conflict with both installed, I added one drive to a delayed start as VM was clean win10 , but both worked together .

lol, yes the pops up only happens at first install and when installing new programs that would start at login, but I really ike that feature 
Hm, I'm not sure what you mean about 'adding a drive to delayed start' - It's for programs. I use it to add programs to it - say, 5 mins after logging in my clipboard manager would start. Some programs use a lot of CPU power at startup so I add them to Delayed Start for a quicker start up.
I don't know if a Virtual Machine makes any difference to it, I've never used/installed it.
Thanks for testing it, though

[edkiefer]

lol, yes the pops up only happens at first install and when installing new programs that would start at login, but I really ike that feature 
Hm, I'm not sure what you mean about 'adding a drive to delayed start' - It's for programs. I use it to add programs to it - say, 5 mins after logging in my clipboard manager would start. Some programs use a lot of CPU power at startup so I add them to Delayed Start for a quicker start up.
I don't know if a Virtual Machine makes any difference to it, I've never used/installed it.
Thanks for testing it, though

What I meant was I added MS OneDrive to delayed startup option , its a cloud based app like Google drive (gave it 1min delay).
Everything worked ok.

[desiree101]

What I meant was I added MS OneDrive to delayed startup option , its a cloud based app like Google drive (gave it 1min delay).
Everything worked ok.

lol, silly me!
Some of my startup programs are okay, but the ones I consider really important like MSE and my antispyware (as well as some others) get deleted from startup. According to avir, these ones startup from Registry, not the startup folder. I wonder if its something to do with the Registry thats causing this... ?

[edkiefer]

Only way to be sure would be run something like autoruns , se how the process starts and then note if its gone or just not working (still listed properly but not running) .
You originally said avir TM didn't run right with PL .
As far as MSE, in Win10 that is called defender ,its installed by default .

Ok, can you tell me do you set a lot of startup to delay for some reason ?

I am afraid we will never get to reproduce this cause there is just to many variables .

Edit: I'll try Superantispyware and see what happens. If you have a set delay for super antispyware, tell me.
Edit2:
Ok, got all three app installed , I even uninstalled PL first before Superantispyware and then reinstalled PL.
No issues here, all are running and starting fine .

[desiree101]

Only way to be sure would be run something like autoruns , se how the process starts and then note if its gone or just not working (still listed properly but not running) .

The processes do not run at all or are listed with PL.

You originally said avir TM didn't run right with PL .
As far as MSE, in Win10 that is called defender ,its installed by default .

avir runs at startup, its just some of the programs that it notifies me of doesn't. I disabled avir with PL to see if the startup programs came back, they didn't. So, PL seems to install something that disables some start up programs.

Ok, can you tell me do you set a lot of startup to delay for some reason ?

No just two, and they run okay.

I am afraid we will never get to reproduce this cause there is just to many variables .

Well, that's a shame, as PL is a good little program but if it stops another program that I find useful in daily PC work, then I have to make a choice. I'm looking at Park Control (made by you guys?) and it seems good for games, but I know its not the same as having the automation of Process Lasso and the ProBalance.

Edit: I'll try Superantispyware and see what happens. If you have a set delay for super antispyware, tell me.
Edit2:
Ok, got all three app installed , I even uninstalled PL first before Superantispyware and then reinstalled PL.
No issues here, all are running and starting fine .

I use Malewarebytes Antispyware - its not on delayed startup.
I don't know what to say, PL just doesn't like my system, and now I know that even without avir, it still stops some of my startup programs, then I'll just have to give it up
Unless a miracle happens lol

[Jeremy Collake]

I haven't had a chance to evaluate this closer, but will get to it soon. There may be ancillary factors.

I would not recommend using the registry to start any application. The Task Scheduler deprecated the old registry Run keys. Switching to it could allow you to maybe work around this issue, whatever it may be.

[edkiefer]

Ok, Thought you meant Super-antispyware, I use Malwarebytes on my main win7 w/o issue, but i installed it in trial form with real time scan running and again all seems fine .
Everything is running and all those apps show in tray fine .
Malwarebytes is very popular program, if that was happening widespread we have all sorts of reports from yrs PL been around .

[Jeremy Collake]

This topic was moved to the 'Bugs' sub-board BTW...

The more we've tested and went through the logic, the more certain it seems, despite the report that avir TM removal had no effect, that avir, or some other software, is the actual culprit.

Since the problem is such that startup programs are suddenly missing, then somehow return after uninstalling Lasso, it *must* be something managing the startup applications because that is way beyond anything Lasso touches. Lasso couldn't, for instance, restore those programs -- or delete them to start with.

Lasso doesn't touch the startup settings of other applications. It doesn't delete any registry values or task scheduler entries. And it really can't do this accidentally.

FWIW, you also have an unnecessarily complex system setup, for instance using both MSE and Malwarebytes. Long ago, Malware detection was merged into security software, so you really need to pick one and go with it, else you'll suffer performance problems. It's never the case that you get 'double the protection', but you definitely get double the false positives and double the complications and performance degradation. You may also (I don't know, talking more to general users now) have too many optimization products installed, probably to the detriment of total performance.

[desiree101]

This topic was moved to the 'Bugs' sub-board BTW...

The more we've tested and went through the logic, the more certain it seems, despite the report that avir TM removal had no effect, that avir, or some other software, is the actual culprit.

Since the problem is such that startup programs are suddenly missing, then somehow return after uninstalling Lasso, it *must* be something managing the startup applications because that is way beyond anything Lasso touches. Lasso couldn't, for instance, restore those programs -- or delete them to start with.

Lasso doesn't touch the startup settings of other applications. It doesn't delete any registry values or task scheduler entries. And it really can't do this accidentally.

FWIW, you also have an unnecessarily complex system setup, for instance using both MSE and Malwarebytes. Long ago, Malware detection was merged into security software, so you really need to pick one and go with it, else you'll suffer performance problems. It's never the case that you get 'double the protection', but you definitely get double the false positives and double the complications and performance degradation. You may also (I don't know, talking more to general users now) have too many optimization products installed, probably to the detriment of total performance.

I agree something is clashing with PL, I just cant tell what it is.
MSE is very basic and doesn't seem to scan for spyware, so I use Malwarebytes. Malewarbytes isn't an antivrus program so I have both, I've never had any problems with both of them installed. I don't have any performance problems with them both installed.
Can you be more specific about the optimization products I have. What do you consider too many and what they are?

[Jeremy Collake]

MSE (aka Windows Defender) is less limited than it might appear. As a free, now built-in, component of Windows, it just has less incentive to be fancy, pop up in your face, and give false positives. It has one of the lowest false positive rates out there, if not the lowest.

MSE does detect Malware. Does it detect as much as Malwarebytes? I don't know, but neither detects enough to make you truly 'safe'. Malware is regenerated virtually daily, and if real-world detection rates were efficacious at stopping it, we'd have little to no malware problem in the world.

You're right, Malwarebytes is limited in scope, unlike most other security software. So, if you are going to run something on top of a full-range security suite like MSE, that would be the thing to run.

As for performance problems, it is sometimes hard to perceive them if you have a decently performing PC, and thus may not matter to you.

So, it may be that you're fine on performance, but there *is* a substantial penalty every time you add a real-time scanner. Consider that every file access must go through the real-time scanners first, leaving the application that made the file I/O request waiting in the interim. In your case, there are at least 2 blocking filters it must go through. Maybe that doesn't add up to any perceptible performance problem, but it is there. avir, also security based, appears to instead do after-the-fact monitoring/adjustment, so at least isn't blocking -- but does have hooks all over the place.

I got a bit on a tangent with too many optimization products, as I don't know your full list, but it's something I've commonly seen. It may or may not apply to you. If you want to give your full list, I can point out cases of duplication or potential conflict.

It's frustrating for me because I know *something* has to be deleting, then restoring, those registry values. Maybe I could reluctantly accept the remote possibility of a really odd bug where Lasso deleted them, but no way in hell could it restore them on uninstall. So, that leaves us looking at other software.

Since nothing Process Lasso does during it's install is improper, what we'll get to, when and if I determine exactly what is going on, is some bug in some other application, and avir keeps looking like a prime target since *it* is managing the startup programs. However, I know you tested without avir, which gives us new possibilities.

In the end, you may have to wait a bit on this, as it's no simple bug, probably outside our purview, and we don't have any other reports of this happening, nor can we reproduce it. So, it's not something that we can allow to command all our limited resources, at the cost of everything else - including v9 development. That SAID, I will continue to attempt to find out what is going on.

One thing you could do is try Process Monitor, which will log all registry, file, and other API requests, so you can literally watch to see what is deleting those values in the Run key. Now, it emits so much info, you will need to limit it's scope and use filters, but the data is there, if you keep it running while going through your procedure to replicate this behavior.

[DeadHead]

I've read about AND experienced first hand similar issues with avir in the past, not in any way related to PL but with other software. From my pov, I would call this one out on on avir itself to 95% certainty (the other 5% would be some other installed 'tweak'-program).
Each to their own, but I won't touch it ever again, that's for sure.

[Jeremy Collake]

I've read about AND experienced first hand similar issues with avir in the past, not in any way related to PL but with other software. From my pov, I would call this one out on on avir itself to 95% certainty (the other 5% would be some other installed 'tweak'-program).
Each to their own, but I won't touch it ever again, that's for sure.

Thanks DeadHead . It is good to hear the perspective of someone else who has used that software.

[BenYeeHua]

And that's why we has build-in startup manager(inside Task Manager) after Windows 8, which also disallow the software detect and re-add/re-enable again.
Also a lot of optimize since Windows 10, even it is invisible for user, but you can feel it by using it.(excluding graphic card driver crash )

MSE (aka Windows Defender) is less limited than it might appear. As a free, now built-in, component of Windows, it just has less incentive to be fancy, pop up in your face, and give false positives. It has one of the lowest false positive rates out there, if not the lowest.

And also right-click menu context for scanning manually, after Windows 10 1511

So far MSE has 94.5% detect rate(best 97% on Nov 2015), with 29 FPs (False Positive on the clean Website domains, lol )
Enabling PUP/PUA should increase the detect rate, but I think normal user should know which software is unwanted, so maybe just ignore it.
http://chart.av-comparatives.org/chart1.php
http://www.av-comparatives.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/avc_prot_2015b_en.pdf

[Jeremy Collake]

I hope the OP here didn't think I was criticizing his setup, my last mention of a potentially excessively complex setup was just speculation, and I tried to phrase it as such. It likely has no bearing on the issue at hand, which we still believe is caused by avir since it's a problem in the area it's managing.

As for MalwareBytes+AV, I found this nifty article on HowToGeek that outlines how to properly run this configuration. Keep in mind that MalwareBytes has a vested interest in wanting you to run both anti-virus and anti-malware. They don't want to go head-deep into the anti-virus world, but at the same time, security software is encroaching into their space very aggressively - yet they are surely trying to delay admitting this fact and adding whatever features 'traditional' security software lacks to compensate.

After all, there aren't too many viruses these days, it's mostly all malware. Thus, anti-virus=anti-malware for most security companies.

Anyway, see http://www.howtogeek.com/230158/how-to-run-malwarebytes-alongside-another-antivirus/ for guidance about that setup. It basically just says watch out for overlap, especially in real-time scanning if you have the paid version of MalwareBytes.

Conclusion of this bug report: Unlikely we'll be able to resolve on this end as it's outside our purview, BUT version 9 ALPHA will start to remove remaining Run key references from Process Lasso as XP support is dropped, so it's possible this changes the way avir behaves and results in the bug not manifesting.

I truly wish I could be of more assistance, but with limited time, I must focus on the bigger picture. We still only have 1 report of this interoperability issue, and are so certain it's the other vendor's fault (again, since they are managing the startup programs, and that is where the bug is).

[BenYeeHua]

Just saying something important (and it is my opinion )

• Dev can't fix the bug if dev can't reproduce by using similar setup/config, more information is usually needed but it will also leak your private information.
• When something(BSoD) or someone pointing which two software are having issues, you may got a Final Boss behind the scene, and "normally" the boss like to hijack everything.
• When crash or malfunction happen, try uninstall your anti-virus or similar software, they like to over monitoring and causing issues.
• It is best that using the original/native language of the software, sometimes translator will type wrong and causing strange issues.(yes, real case, try Google how's translate in Excel)
• Digital world is based on Analog world, everything can be happen, try changing the hardware if format and reinstall don't solved it.
• 6 should be a good number.

That's all I want to said.

[desiree101]

avir does have some tweaking parts to it, but I don't use them, I just like the start-up monitoring part. If that is considered a tweak, then okay, it's a tweak  . And its the only one I use, so 'too many' does't apply to my set up. I've used avir for a few years and I've never had any problems with it. The fact that it clashes a little with Process Lasso isn't a big problem in my opinion, I just can't use both with one of the programs not working at full capacity. If I have to choose one over the other, then it I'll do that. I do like Process Lasso, its a very good program. Who knows, I may try it again in the near future and see what happens (and I'll let you know how it goes), but for now I'll stick with Park Control which seems to do all I want with my games.
@ Jeremy, I'm a 'she', not a 'he' - not that it makes any difference lol.
I'll read the article from the link you provided. Thank you for your help, I'll keep an eye out for the new Alpha version too
Thanks all !

[desiree101]

Okay, I'm back. And I think we (i.e, you) are going to have a good chuckle about this, but I decided to try using Process Lasso again - and everything works! No problems with start-up programs, no clash with avir. And I don't know why!   
I did a big cleanup, uninstalled some unused programs (not avir, I'll never get rid of it! lol) scanned system files and checked my disks. I completely uninstalled PL and cleaned out the registry leftovers, then reinstalled it (64bit).
Does it matter which version is installed?
Anyway, something I did has fixed the problem. I wish I knew for sure what it was but I'm just happy I persevered with this and going over this thread again, reading all the advice you guys gave has made me try again. Considering none of you had the same problem I did with avir, I had to try and fix whatever was wrong with my setup - whatever that was, its allowed me to have both avir and PL working

[edkiefer]

Great, glad it is working now .

On version, I don't think it matters, AFAIk, if you tried to install 64bit on OS it will either revert to correct version or it would give a warning , I think it auto switches .

[Jeremy Collake]

Glad it's working! I can say it wasn't anything I did.. I've been busy on v9. Now, granted I did introduce an important change in the last v8 update a few days ago, and I suppose that could have impacted that other software, but I doubt it. In the end, the issue may recur, so let's not celebrate prematurely. I still strongly believe the fault lies with that other software, so this report should have perhaps went to them to start with. Sometimes I over-commit myself in trying to identify the cause of every issue, but it seemed apparent to me early on that Process Lasso was not the culprit. That's not to say it has never had bugs, or is perfect, but this particular report just wasn't feasible for it's code base.

I don't know how often you reinstall Windows, but I recommend doing it bi-yearly for active PCs. It can really clean up a lot of mysterious problems. There is way too much crapware in the software ecosystem, and trying a few applications can literally do permanent damage to your OS installation that may not become apparent for weeks or months after use of the crapware.

That's one of the good things about Process Lasso - It makes no system setting changes. It doesn't go around 'tweaking' registry values and such. Well, unless you tell it to .

[BenYeeHua]

I did a big cleanup, uninstalled some unused programs (not avir, I'll never get rid of it! lol) scanned system files and checked my disks. I completely uninstalled PL and cleaned out the registry leftovers, then reinstalled it (64bit).

Then it sound like another third part software or system file corrupt then.

I don't know how often you reinstall Windows, but I recommend doing it bi-yearly for active PCs. It can really clean up a lot of mysterious problems. There is way too much crapware in the software ecosystem, and trying a few applications can literally do permanent damage to your OS installation that may not become apparent for weeks or months after use of the crapware.

Yup, for recently, MS has released a patch that reset the default apps, because the crapware has changed it in non-standard ways, so Windows10 forced to reset to to repair it, and get blame because MS don't telling anyone.

It will be interesting for the repair function of Windows 10, as I know is you can check and repair the system files as long as you are online, so no need for reinstall.
Unless you are unlucky and even you can't boot into it.