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Computer Freezing (EDIT: overheating CPU on overclocked PC)

Started by ilikefree, April 01, 2015, 08:34:37 PM

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ilikefree

I have had my computer freeze a few times lately, sometimes when starting up (no blue screen)and sometimes after starting a video.
I have found if I change the power profile from Bitsum Highest Performance to High Performance it stops freezing.
Has anyone else had this problem?

chris635

I have not. What CPU do you have? Are your cores unlocked?
Chris

BenYeeHua

Or overclocked?
Because many overclocked CPU will freeze if they disabled the core-parking, because of not enough voltage. :)

chris635

Quote from: BenYeeHua on April 01, 2015, 10:40:49 PM
Or overclocked?
Because many overclocked CPU will freeze if they disabled the core-parking, because of not enough voltage. :)

That's exactly why I asked him.  ;)
Chris

BenYeeHua

Yup, I wonder did future CPU will support overclock much more friendly or not, because future CPU seem like having better respond for vdroop. ;)

chris635

On my heavily overclocked amd (5ghz) c6 state will cause a freeze with cores unlocked while using anything flashed oriented, mainly flash games, so I disabled c6 state and problem is gone.
Chris

ilikefree

No overclocking

Intel Pentium T2080
   Cores   2
   Threads   2
   Name   Intel Pentium T2080
   Code Name   Yonah
   Package   Socket 479 mPGA
   Technology   65nm
   Specification   Genuine Intel(R) CPU T2080 @ 1.73GHz
   Family   6
   Extended Family   6
   Model   E
   Extended Model   E
   Stepping   C
   Revision   D0
   Instructions   MMX, SSE, SSE2, SSE3
   Bus Speed   133.0 MHz
   Rated Bus Speed   532.0 MHz
   Stock Core Speed   1733 MHz
   Stock Bus Speed   133 MHz
   Average Temperature   60 °C
      Caches
         L1 Data Cache Size   2 x 32 KBytes
         L1 Instructions Cache Size   2 x 32 KBytes
         L2 Unified Cache Size   1024 KBytes
      Core 0
         Core Speed   1729.1 MHz
         Multiplier   x 13.0
         Bus Speed   133.0 MHz
         Rated Bus Speed   532.0 MHz
         Temperature   60 °C
            Thread 1
               APIC ID   0
      Core 1
         Core Speed   1729.1 MHz
         Multiplier   x 13.0
         Bus Speed   133.0 MHz
         Rated Bus Speed   532.0 MHz
         Temperature   59 °C
            Thread 1
               APIC ID   1

chris635

is this a lap top or desk top?
Chris

ilikefree

Toshiba laptop, Quite old fitted with SSD goes pretty quick normally.
I have not had any freezing since I changed the power profile back to High Performance from Bitsum Highest Performance

chris635

Is this while on the battery? High performance on the laptop should be set:
Minimum Processor State
   On battery 5%
   Plugged in 100%
System Cooling
   On battery  Active
   Plugged in Active
Maximum Processor State
   On Battery 100%
   Plugged in 100%

Bitsum Highest Performance
  Everything is 100% with Active cooling for both battery and plugged in.

If you are set like this, I suspect that you are overheating as high performance mode allows the processor to idle down to a lower clock and lower voltage when not being used hard.
Bitsum Highest Performance runs 100% (WIDE OPEN) all the time.

Chris
Chris

Jeremy Collake

Quote from: chris635 on April 03, 2015, 04:41:25 AM
If you are set like this, I suspect that you are overheating as high performance mode allows the processor to idle down to a lower clock and lower voltage when not being used hard.
Bitsum Highest Performance runs 100% (WIDE OPEN) all the time.

This is not entirely accurate. There is a big difference from a utilized CPU, and one that simply hasn't been downclocked or parked.

In a high CPU use situation, the total heat dissipated would be the same under either power plan, because the processors would be scaled up and unparked.

Also, while idle, the CPU has the HLT instruction and such, which keep it cool.

All Bitsum's Highest Performance Plan can *ever* do is marginally increase the temperature from what it otherwise would have been while *idle* or in *moderate* loads - but, again, just a little.

In short, if your system has overheating problems, then you will see it with or without Bitsum's Highest Performance Plan - and your system is improperly configured and MUST be adjusted.

EDIT: Note that while I wanted to clarify that point, I do believe he is right - the marginal increase in normal temps has caused you to see a system hardware flaw that you would have otherwise seen in *other* circumstances as well. Maybe your room is too hot, for instance. That's all it'd take if you are that close to the margin. From my cursory look at this thread...
Software Engineer. Bitsum LLC.

Jeremy Collake

Added the above text (edited a bit) to the Gaming Mode page, to help explain: https://bitsum.com/docs/pl/gaming/
Software Engineer. Bitsum LLC.

chris635

I think in my haste to get to work this morning, I didn't explain myself well enough. On the whole I agree with you. At 1.6v idle and 1.1v idle the temperature margin's are between 1 to 2 degree's at best, so no significant temperature increase because of no load. I can run a game (Crysis 3 to be exact, which is CPU bound) with cool n quite (AMD down scaling) all cores active and temperatures will be about 7degrees cooler than running without cool n quite (no down Scaling). What I as trying to get at is, the difference between high performance and bitsum high performance was that while on battery, high performance will down scale to 5% cpu usage when not needed where bitsum high performance does not, so I was assuming because this was the only difference that maybe he was overheating because it was an older lap top and based of my experiences. Now I didn't look at every option difference between the two except processor power management, but I don't think there is anything else different between the two that could cause freezing, other than possibly overheating.
Chris

Jeremy Collake

Agreed completely. That's what I also tried to clarify, that the marginal 'normal' temperature could cause a higher under load temperature. BUT, a properly configured and built system should be able to handle that fine. If not, it needs stress testing and proper maintenance or adjustments.
Software Engineer. Bitsum LLC.

chris635

Like you mentioned. I think some maintenance needs to be done on that lap top. That may cure the problem.
Chris

Jeremy Collake

Maybe a good air dusting. Those tiny fans are *critical*, and after a while they get quite dusty due to the air flow.
Software Engineer. Bitsum LLC.

BenYeeHua

It is always funny when I heard the computer is freezing because it is hot, I think we are breaking the science law. ::)

ilikefree

My laptop is always on power except when travelling to and from work, it's asleep then.
It only freezes when using Bitsum high performance power setting
All Bitsum Process Lasso settings are at their default except the power setting now and no freezing.
Will give it a clean out though.

Jeremy Collake

So you do you understand what we told you? (ignoring BenYeeHua's joke ;p)

That the slight increase in normal operating temperatures causes it to reach a critical point of overheating faster than it otherwise would, but no way would you not have problems anyway (sooner or later).

Try a system stress tester. Anyone have one to recommend?
Software Engineer. Bitsum LLC.

Jeremy Collake

Your laptop being always on may also be part of the problem... that really makes those cooling components age faster. Just a thought. Anyway, stress test - ensure your hardware can handle the loads it is designed to handle.
Software Engineer. Bitsum LLC.

chris635

Aida64 is a good stress tester. It's free for 30 days, OCCT, and Prime 95.
Chris

BenYeeHua

Quote from: Jeremy Collake on April 04, 2015, 11:37:41 AM
Your laptop being always on may also be part of the problem... that really makes those cooling components age faster. Just a thought. Anyway, stress test - ensure your hardware can handle the loads it is designed to handle.
It can also be the power supply is aging too, so the power is unstable for the CPU, as the old CPU really using high voltage than now. :)

Jeremy Collake

That is also true. All these things can be diagnosed with a stress test. Run without Lasso's HP mode first, or without Lasso at all (shut down).
Software Engineer. Bitsum LLC.

ilikefree

After I set PL to defaults I went into options, gaming mode and de-selected Attempt Game Detection and  change power profile to Bitsum Highest Performance and have had no freezing since.
Video recoding is the most my computer works and I'm having no problems doing that now.
Core temp and speed fan have not reported any overheating problems and at home my laptop sits on a base with a built in fan so I don't think it is a heat related problem.
As I said earlier I mostly have my laptop on or sleeping but I restart every couple of days and have done so since 2006
I do a clean up with System Ninja and CCleaner daily, a SFC /SCANNOW check once a week, make an image twice a month and don't normally have any problems, except when in Bitsum Highest Performance power plan.
I have disabled a lot of things to track down the problem and they all came back to Bitsum Highest Performance being on at the time of any freezing.
Sometimes the computer would freeze even when idle, I return to do more work and nothing will work and the only way to recover is hold the power button down to force a shutdown.
Seems to be working OK now with the changes I have made to the settings in Process Lasso.

Jeremy Collake

Good. Keep it that way. I hope you understood, like I said.

The BHP power plan can cause the 'normal' (idle) temperature to increase slightly, so when a temporary load is placed on the CPU, the CPU (or possibly GPU) overheat. However, this can *only* happen on systems that are 'on the edge' anyway, which is why I suggested stress testing. You might, one day, run some software that does an extended operation that requires a lot of CPU use and - bam - another freeze.
Software Engineer. Bitsum LLC.

ilikefree

I will run Prime95 this weekend with all power options and see what happens under each setting and report back to you.
Thanks

chris635

Quote from: ilikefree on April 08, 2015, 04:03:28 PM
I will run Prime95 this weekend with all power options and see what happens under each setting and report back to you.
Thanks

Watch your temperatures while running Prime95. It will heat your lap top up.
Chris

ilikefree

Will have core temp running at the same time and report temps for each setting

chris635

Quote from: ilikefree on April 08, 2015, 04:32:58 PM
Will have core temp running at the same time and report temps for each setting

Sounds good.  ;)
Chris

ilikefree

I have had one freeze today. Temp with TrueTemp and CoreTemp was 23c on both.
Don't think it is Process Lasso now
Could it be a driver causing this?
All my drivers are up to date according to Slim Drivers, but maybe I don't need the latest driver to be stable.
I really don't know what to do to track down this problem now.

ilikefree

I just noticed my last post was recorded as being at 12:02:28am when it is 4:06pm here

edkiefer

Quote from: ilikefree on April 10, 2015, 12:06:08 AM
I just noticed my last post was recorded as being at 12:02:28am when it is 4:06pm here
Go to look and layout of your profile and you can change offset hr amount  if it doesn't match your local time .
Bitsum QA Engineer

ilikefree

OK I looked in event viewer and my disruptive shutdowns were always after a Microsoft Security Essentials update so I un-installed MSSE and replaced it with Avast.
I had no freeze yesterday
I did have a freeze today and temp recorded by RealTemp was 32 that's 68c away from tj max so i'm back were I started
I don't think it is temp related

Jeremy Collake

Quote from: ilikefree on April 11, 2015, 05:34:54 PM
I don't think it is temp related

In such a case, I'd reinstall Windows and your hardware drivers from scratch and hope the situation changed. If it doesn't, then maybe you could investigate closer, but at this point - how much time is invested in trying to make this particular Windows install work right?
Software Engineer. Bitsum LLC.

chris635

What about maybe running sfc /scannow or running check disk to check for file errors or hard drive problems that may be causing freezing?
Chris

ilikefree

Quote from: chris635 on April 11, 2015, 05:49:29 PM
What about maybe running sfc /scannow or running check disk to check for file errors or hard drive problems that may be causing freezing?
I have done both nothing found
Didn't want to reinstall as I have so many programs that were free for only one day
The oldest image of my computer is only 8th March and may not be old enough to be before problems started.
I will have to think about a fresh install for a little while to see what I will lose.
My mate tells me to nuke and pave so he agrees with Jeremy

chris635

Yea  it does sound like a re install then..that sucks!
Chris

ilikefree

I do keep backup drivers so am testing them first and so far looking good
Next step will be to update them one at a time with a period between to see what breaks it so will be testing for a while

Jeremy Collake

You are doing it right, methodologically. That's the only way to know. (realistically)
Software Engineer. Bitsum LLC.

ilikefree

Thanks Jeremy, I thought I had found it but had another freeze after I had removed what I thought may have been the program behind it.
Only had one so far so putting off the reinstall for a bit

Jeremy Collake

I hear you, reinstalls are a pain.

Here at Bitsum, I have a protocol of reinstalling Windows on all workstations twice a year. This is mainly for security purposes, but it also helps keep them running lean and mean. It's also a very good way to make sure that everyone keeps their data backed up, ready to restore to a new installation of Windows ;).

Software Engineer. Bitsum LLC.

ilikefree

I back up my system with Macrium Reflect twice a month, I find it easier than backing up files to just do the whole computer
I delete older files and now am unable to go back far enough to clear the problem

Jeremy Collake

So you are saying when you restore that backup, the problem reappears?
Software Engineer. Bitsum LLC.

ilikefree

Yes, If I am unable to find the cause I will be reinstalling as my image files don't go back far enough to clear the problem
No freeze yesterday computer on all day
Wake from sleep today and about four minutes after it froze up so problem not gone yet

Jeremy Collake

This sort of thing can be pretty trick to diagnose for sure.

Remove Process Lasso for now, or quit using Gaming Mode, if that marginal increase in normal temperature does push your PC over the line -- but, again, if that is the case, it will fail anyway under stress testing.

It sounds more like a random thing -- maybe capacitor going bad, or power supply anomaly.
Software Engineer. Bitsum LLC.

ilikefree

Update: Reinstalled older drivers from a backup,
removed Avast, reinstalled MSSE for now.
reinstalled PL (found on reinstalling Bitsum Highest Performance power option was missing)
did an on line re-image scan (no errors found)
did a scan with MS Emergency Response Tool (nothing found)
did a disc check dskchk /r, two corrupt files found and replaced
did a system file check sfc /scannow (nothing found)
removed Private Firewall (will reinstall later)
Malwarebytes anti-malware found nothing
Computer starts in 65 - 71 seconds with no freezing so far after fresh boot
I did have one freeze after waking from sleep
so far thing are looking very good if I compare things to how they were a few days ago when I could only start my computer using Last Known Good Configuration.
I don't plan on making any changes for a few days now
Thanks everyone for the prompt help

BenYeeHua

Quotedid a disc check dskchk /r, two corrupt files found and replaced
Hmm, check your hard disk S.M.A.R.T.?
It sound like your hard disk are dying...

QuoteI did have one freeze after waking from sleep
This should be normal, as many driver don't support sleep very well, and will causing freeze for using sleeping...
It can be network card, or graphic card. :)

ilikefree

I have had a look there but don't know what it all means
attached is a screenshot

BenYeeHua

Look fine, except it is showing that you has force shut down your computer a lot of  times, and also lost power while it is running. :)
For the meaning, it is listed at here, normally you can just check the error count.
PS:Except the C7, it is normal to see SSD need CRC correction, except the BB showing that it failed to fix the data. ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S.M.A.R.T.#Known_ATA_S.M.A.R.T._attributes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S.M.A.R.T.#Known_ATA_S.M.A.R.T._attributes)

ilikefree

The shutdowns are after I get the freezing it is the only way I have been able to get control back
Still had a freeze this morning so creating a new user account in case it is something in my profile that is causing it.
Tried to use a standard drive yesterday to start with a fresh install but it failed so put the SSD back in.
May be time for a new laptop