Report of wildly incorrect CPU use

Journeyover · September 30, 2016, 04:03:45 PM

So I recently had to switch my SATA port mode in my BIOS from IDE to AHCI, and once I got booted back to my desktop and got things running again, I noticed something odd happening in Process Lasso.. It was showing numbers for the CPU Utilization way higher than what task manager or anything else was reporting.

I tried uninstalling and reinstalling Process Lasso and cleaning up everything to do with it, and it still ends up just showing way higher numbers than it should be. [example -- currently my CPU is showing at 32%-33% on task manager, but process lasso is reporting a CPU Utilization of 70%-80%] if I go and switch back to IDE mode in my BIOS things seem to be reporting the correct numbers but I can't stay in IDE mode because my computer is having some weird issues in IDE mode and only AHCI mode seems to have fixed it.

Specifics --
OS - Windows 10 x64 Anniversary update
Ram - 8gigs
CPU - AMD 6350 6-core 3.9ghz
GPU - Nvidia GTX 760
Process Lasso Version - 8.9.8.48 x64

edkiefer · September 30, 2016, 06:31:37 PM

That is a new one, never heard of that problem before.

I always thought switching from IDE to AHCI cause issues at boot (never had to try it but reading others various reports).

I vaguely remember having to edit registry first and then switching.

Journeyover · September 30, 2016, 09:01:03 PM

Quote from: edkiefer on September 30, 2016, 06:31:37 PM
That is a new one, never heard of that problem before.

I always thought switching from IDE to AHCI cause issues at boot (never had to try it but reading others various reports).

I vaguely remember having to edit registry first and then switching.

Yes if you don't do the switch correctly you can't boot into windows then at all unless you clean boot your system or switch back to IDE mode. There are three ways to do switch from IDE to AHCI and that's

1. do a clean boost (reinstall the whole OS) after switching your SATA over to AHCI.
2. do a registry edit to allow AHCI mode, have to do registry edit before going into BIOS (and have to go into bios before windows loads on restart) or switching from IDE to AHCI will cause you to have issues.
3. Turn on boot into safe mode and then jump into your bios and switch to AHCI before windows starts loading and then after that let it go into safe mode and then turn safe mode off and restart again back to normal windows.

Those are at least 3 ways I know of that'll allow you to switch from IDE to AHCI or do the reverse, 2 of them allow you to do it without a clean install, and the first one well it is a clean install.

Either way I'm still having the issue with process Lasso showing higher numbers than should be, even after multiple restarts and such.

edkiefer · September 30, 2016, 10:04:55 PM

I really don't know, only thing I can think of is to try uninstall PL, then enter regedit and go to HKLM\software\ and delete Processlasso key if there still data in it.
There also a HKCU\software\Processlasso and do same.

Then install and see if that makes difference.

Journeyover · October 01, 2016, 02:38:41 AM

Quote from: edkiefer on September 30, 2016, 10:04:55 PM
I really don't know, only thing I can think of is to try uninstall PL, then enter regedit and go to HKLM\software\ and delete Processlasso key if there still data in it.
There also a HKCU\software\Processlasso and do same.

Then install and see if that makes difference.

Well I uninstalled Process Lasso and deleted those keys, and then restarted my computer and reinstalled process lasso. At first it looked like things where going to be working as the numbers where relatively even with the task manager, but after a few seconds it started going wild again and showing way higher numbers than what I was getting in task manger. So I think this is something that bitsum will have to look into and fix themselves..

edkiefer · October 01, 2016, 07:15:24 AM

What process has real high CPU% in PL , maybe we can track it that way, is it AV?

Journeyover · October 01, 2016, 03:07:55 PM

Quote from: edkiefer on October 01, 2016, 07:15:24 AM
What process has real high CPU% in PL , maybe we can track it that way, is it AV?

Here I took a picture to help show what I mean, I have CPU (%) going from greatest to smallest on both process lasso and task manager. -- http://i.imgur.com/vLwE1Jn.png maybe this will help out a bit. and I don't have an antivirus other than the default one supplied with windows 10 (windows defender)

Jeremy Collake · October 01, 2016, 03:55:29 PM

Hmm, this is an odd report. It will require some further research maybe.

Let me ask: Did you change the Refresh rate (poll interval) of either the Governor or GUI? Or make any other custom changes?

The Win10 OS is certainly not the issue, we run the same build of it here too.

Thanks!

Journeyover · October 01, 2016, 05:20:08 PM

Quote from: Jeremy Collake on October 01, 2016, 03:55:29 PM
Hmm, this is an odd report. It will require some further research maybe.

Let me ask: Did you change the Refresh rate (poll interval) of either the Governor or GUI? Or make any other custom changes?

The Win10 OS is certainly not the issue, we run the same build of it here too.

Thanks!

Nope haven't changed a single thing to do with refresh rates or really anything else. all settings are set at default, minus having games run on gaming mode, and having a few programs set keep running.

Journeyover · October 11, 2016, 06:50:39 AM

This issue is still very much persistent.. really hope it's getting looked into still.

edkiefer · October 11, 2016, 07:15:27 AM

Quote from: Journeyover on October 11, 2016, 06:50:39 AM
This issue is still very much persistent.. really hope it's getting looked into still.

It is being looked at but we need to be able to reproduce it.
I only have Intel based systems and with refresh rate of PL= 1sec and task manager set to normal, they are pretty much same values, not exactly same but very close.
Same with Process Explorer, not same but very close.

Jeremy has some AMD based systems on his end AFAIK, so see what he finds.

Jeremy Collake · October 11, 2016, 12:25:04 PM

It hasn't been forgotten about, though this is still the only report, and I am having trouble fathoming what in the world could be going on here. Since Lasso gets it's CPU use data directly from the OS, it's hard to get 'wrong' unless something hooked those API calls and is returning invalid values. That's why I asked about the refresh rate, in case the computation was wrong, though it shouldn't be at any refresh rate.

This week I have to finish a bunch of tax/accounting/regulation BS then it's straight into the release of v9 in about 45 days, so hopefully we'll clear it up by then. We may have to get more info about your software ecosystem. Be patient, and I'll do what I can. The problem with issues like this is there is no easy fix for me to give you. In some cases, I can say, "Do this", or "The cause is that". But I remain ignorant about what is going on in this lone report.

Journeyover · October 15, 2016, 04:17:58 AM

Quote from: Jeremy Collake on October 11, 2016, 12:25:04 PM
It hasn't been forgotten about, though this is still the only report, and I am having trouble fathoming what in the world could be going on here. Since Lasso gets it's CPU use data directly from the OS, it's hard to get 'wrong' unless something hooked those API calls and is returning invalid values. That's why I asked about the refresh rate, in case the computation was wrong, though it shouldn't be at any refresh rate.

This week I have to finish a bunch of tax/accounting/regulation BS then it's straight into the release of v9 in about 45 days, so hopefully we'll clear it up by then. We may have to get more info about your software ecosystem. Be patient, and I'll do what I can. The problem with issues like this is there is no easy fix for me to give you. In some cases, I can say, "Do this", or "The cause is that". But I remain ignorant about what is going on in this lone report.

Glad it's not forgotten about, and whatever you need just let me know and I'll get back to you ASAP.

Jeremy Collake · October 22, 2016, 07:03:19 PM

I am going to put your name on the v9 access list. I dunno that it will fix this bizarre report (which we may never know the cause of if isolated to your PC tbh), but perhaps some change will. It just doesn't seem possible, or we are missing some obvious factor that is skewing the data.

Journeyover · October 24, 2016, 02:58:22 AM

Quote from: Jeremy Collake on October 22, 2016, 07:03:19 PM
I am going to put your name on the v9 access list. I dunno that it will fix this bizarre report (which we may never know the cause of if isolated to your PC tbh), but perhaps some change will. It just doesn't seem possible, or we are missing some obvious factor that is skewing the data.

How do I go about accessing it? as I searched around and couldn't find anything on how to get to it :s

Jeremy Collake · October 24, 2016, 07:14:13 AM

Email us at support@bitsum.com with your name and email so we can put you on the early-access list... Note that this isn't a 'get a fix early' type thing, it's a collaborate effort where you are a tester, feedback-er, etc...

Thank you for hanging in there. I've never heard of a case like this, so am a bit curious. I wonder if there is some malware on the PC that could be trying to hide it's CPU consumption, but it's hard to know, especially if such were as a rootkit.

Journeyover · October 24, 2016, 10:24:42 AM

Quote from: Jeremy Collake on October 24, 2016, 07:14:13 AM
Email us at support@bitsum.com with your name and email so we can put you on the early-access list... Note that this isn't a 'get a fix early' type thing, it's a collaborate effort where you are a tester, feedback-er, etc...

Thank you for hanging in there. I've never heard of a case like this, so am a bit curious. I wonder if there is some malware on the PC that could be trying to hide it's CPU consumption, but it's hard to know, especially if such were as a rootkit.

Alright will do, and I know for a fact it's not some malware or virus or anything on my PC because I take extra good care of what I download and do not download and I would never download something that had malware/viruses/whatever, plus this happened on a fresh new re-install of an OS and like I said back when I first made this thread it was showing everything correctly until I went into my BIOS and changed my SATA port mode from IDE to AHCI and then that is when the issue started, but I can't go back to IDE at all since it'll cause even more problems on my computer than just the whole process lasso thing.

Edit: email sent.

Journeyover · November 11, 2016, 03:11:47 PM

So just did a clean install of windows 2 days ago because I got a new SSD to upgrade from my old 120gig one, first thing I installed was process lasso to see if the problem would not be there but as soon as process lasso started up and doing it's thing, it was throwing out the wrong CPU Utilization % right at the start on process lasso compared to task manager. Now this was on a clean install with literally no other programs, or anything else installed on my computer except for the default stuff that comes with Windows OS, so I wouldn't have any viruses, other programs, pretty much nothing was interfering with the CPU %..

Didn't even throw my setting file into the mix for process lasso, so it was running at all default settings not a single thing changed..

Only thing that was and is the same on my computer is that I was and still am in AHCI .. and it's the only way I can run my computer for now, so the feeling that I have is that there is something going on with process lasso that makes it grab the wrong numbers if you put your computer into AHCI instead of IDE..

Edit: this was all of course 2 days ago, it's still reporting the wildly incorrect CPU use, but I have since gotten all my programs and everything back on my computer again.

edkiefer · November 11, 2016, 04:30:41 PM

I am not sure on AHCI being the cause because most modern systems are AHCI in last 10yrs .
IDE not used much anymore.

Anyway, thanks for update on the issue.

Jeremy Collake · November 18, 2016, 10:20:23 AM

This is still an interesting issue to me. I just haven't figure it out *yet*. But I have a history of eventually figuring out even the strangest cases. We'll see. Still this is one person, even if multiple PCs... there is some other factor unique to you. Hmm...

You know, I hate to suggest this, but what IF a rootkit was installed and was hiding CPU activity from Task Manager, but didn't think to hide such from Process Lasso? I know, you did a clean install, but be extra careful and let's rule this out.

Journeyover · December 02, 2016, 11:18:18 PM

Quote from: Jeremy Collake on November 18, 2016, 10:20:23 AM
This is still an interesting issue to me. I just haven't figure it out *yet*. But I have a history of eventually figuring out even the strangest cases. We'll see. Still this is one person, even if multiple PCs... there is some other factor unique to you. Hmm...

You know, I hate to suggest this, but what IF a rootkit was installed and was hiding CPU activity from Task Manager, but didn't think to hide such from Process Lasso? I know, you did a clean install, but be extra careful and let's rule this out.

I've done multiple clean re-installs since this issue has started because of various factors, all from a clean ISO, I've even grabbed other ISO's to rule it out being a single ISO issue. I've done rootkit scans, I've done various other scans, I've done lots and lots of things that I have just given up on this as I see no way it's going to get fixed from my perspective. Every single time I've done a clean install since this issue has happened, I've always installed process lasso first. Installed the latest alpha build as well since I've actually got time to test things now and it's still sadly showing the same problem of incorrect CPU use.

In all honestly I just think my CPU or motherboard is borked or something, as I've been having computer issues for several months now, but I sadly don't have the money nor any spare parts to go and replace either thing and probably won't for some time.

Jeremy Collake · December 06, 2016, 11:35:51 AM

I honestly don't know the cause, but do not believe it is your hardware.

It is the first case I've ever heard and makes no sense to me what-so-ever.

Process Lasso gets it's data from the OS. So, my *only* theory is that something has hooked those API (or Counters) and adjusted them. That is why I tossed out the 'maybe rootkit' idea during brainstorming.

Are you using safe/validated ISO images?

Journeyover · December 07, 2016, 06:21:06 AM

Quote from: Jeremy Collake on December 06, 2016, 11:35:51 AM
I honestly don't know the cause, but do not believe it is your hardware.

It is the first case I've ever heard and makes no sense to me what-so-ever.

Process Lasso gets it's data from the OS. So, my *only* theory is that something has hooked those API (or Counters) and adjusted them. That is why I tossed out the 'maybe rootkit' idea during brainstorming.

Are you using safe/validated ISO images?

it's honestly gotta be hardware because I don't know what else there could be that could be causing this on top of just my computer issues I've been having for months no matter if I clean install or not, no matter how many virus scans / rootkit scans / malware scans / or anything else I've run and come back clean every single time.

I've recently gone the route of downloading two other tools like process explorer and process hacker (something I should of done a long time ago) to see if they reported high CPU usage as well, and well they do so the problem isn't only to do with process lasso. Sorting them both by CPU utilization -- http://i.imgur.com/RO3KmMK.png process explorer on the left and process hacker on the right, and well I can't seem to sort at all in the newest alpha build of process lasso (sorting is completely broken on all fronts for the all processes tab) so can't really get you a picture of that..

Yes I'm using a safe/validated ISO image right from the Microsoft website and toolkit -- https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows10 pretty much what I've been using since the start of windows 10 release.

edkiefer · December 07, 2016, 07:51:01 AM

Try toggling high precision timer in bios, its long shot but see if that makes a different.
Should be in PCH config section

Edit: I don't really see a issue in that pic, if you look at process list from top to bottom there about the same. You got 181 processes running so that makes it hard.
From my experience each monitoring software might not be in sync exactly (meaning they might be out of phase a bit). To try an limit that, use "CPU time" unit and see if that matches better.

Try limiting the processes to right after boot, like 80 or at least under 100 and see if that helps.
I don't get exactly same numbers at same time comparing task-manger and PE .

Jeremy Collake · December 23, 2016, 06:03:38 PM

You will never get *exactly* the same numbers because of the way the measurement is done.

CPU % is very misleading really, not in it's meaning, but in the way it implies the CPU operates. It doesn't 'go at 40%' (aside from frequency scaling in very light loads), it is executing or it is idle.

So CPU % is the amount of time it spent of the last X seconds (usually 1) executing code. 100ms difference in the timing and the values can be wildly off.

Lino · January 12, 2017, 07:37:34 AM

About the 'wildly incorrect cpu usage': I don't think this is Process Lasso's issue -- rather, some weird driver / kernel stuff bug is happening, from my experience. After looking at your screenshots with other task managers, the 'system' process is using a significant amount of CPU. Try running Resplendence Software's LatencyMon -- it'll point you to what driver / device is responsible.

Jeremy Collake · March 08, 2017, 10:22:34 AM

Quote from: Lino on January 12, 2017, 07:37:34 AM
About the 'wildly incorrect cpu usage': I don't think this is Process Lasso's issue -- rather, some weird driver / kernel stuff bug is happening, from my experience. After looking at your screenshots with other task managers, the 'system' process is using a significant amount of CPU. Try running Resplendence Software's LatencyMon -- it'll point you to what driver / device is responsible.

Based on the report and the Process Lasso source code, I would tend to agree. It pull it's data from the OS, so I don't know how it can get it wrong. I am wondering if something is filtering/hooking the requests, but, if so, why? OR maybe there is some bug in Process Lasso... remains open.